Re: Was: Imm probs -> guilds

From: Mr. Wizard (
Date: 09/08/94

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994 wrote:

> > Exactly.  And for those of you saying "but a cleric should never be able 
> > to join a thief guild", that is covered in the guild rules (if guilds are 
> > coded correctly).
> Ofcourse, even healers may want to join a thief clan. As I see it, those
> standaards guilds are nice, but the additional guilds would be nicer when
> there is a possibility for players to join and thereby not be banned from
> the standaards guilds. For example, you could have some mafia guild, a 
> secret organization, who every player could join. Isn't it so that rl 
> clans, mafia even have accountants, doctors etc. in there family even if 
> there are not a thief.  

A better analogy to my cleric can't join a thief guild rule would be 
having a priest join up with the mafia.  While this is posible, it 
definitely would not be condoned by the church (priest's guild), and the 
priest would be thrown out if it was known.

The easiest way to enforce ths kind of logic is to not allow people to 
join certain guilds once they have already joined.  A nicer way (in my 
opinion) is to have players thrown out of a guild when they do something 
that conflicts with that guild's rules.  The best idea would be to have 
some type of detecton routine.  By detection routine I mean something 
that 'detects' when you have violated a rule.  Thus you could secretly 
join a thief guild as a cleric, or violate some guild rule and NOT be 
thrown out (undetected).  What you would use as the basis for detection 
is a tougher question.

I was speaking more of issues where you publicly (as opposed to secretly) 
join a guild.  Of couse allowing players to do things in secret would be 
nice, but the code to allow it and deal with it properly gets a bit trickier.

> > My vision of guilds is more as a more dynamic replacement for classes.  
> > Restricting membership based on level, and creating a virtual family is 
> > what I usually refer to as clans.  Guild can get quite large when they 
> > replace classes.  Even if you have twenty guilds, the classic ones 
> > (swordsman, cleric, mage and thief) always have a lot of members.  
> Well, I personally thought about keeping the standaard guild, I don't even
> consider them as guild because you only come and practice there and read 
> some mail. I merely see them as a practice yard where someone, 'the 
> guildmaster', teaches you specific things of a certain class. 

They are only as exciting as you make them.  You could have things happen 
in the guilds aside from practicing.  Perhaps even locate a few shops in 
guilds, or a special process here and there.
> I think a warrior is a warrior because he has some skill of fighting which 
> is higher then a normal person. But still this warrior can have evil 
> thoughts, and join a thief guild. Personally I don't mind a warrior 
> helping to bash off some merchantmen (who just got robbed by me) chasing 
> me trough narrow streets *wink*. 

Yikes!  I would hope the warrior wouldn't have to join a thief guild to 
help a thief!  Or even to steal.  Anyone can try to steal, but in the 
guild of thieves you can actually be _taught_ to steal.  Now a warrior 
(member of the swordsman guild) could easily decide to steal some gold 
from someone or bash up a few merchants chasing a thief, but it is 
another thing altogeether for him to decide to multiclass (join a thief 
guild) and devote part of his life training (practice sessions) to the art.

> Even magicusers or clerics could help a lot when your planning a big 
> sneakin..sneakout...operation on some nice castle filled with goodies.

No doubt.  I am sure that's why people group.  :)

> The guild in my vision is something....mmmm...where everyone can join, see 
> it asa hobby *humpf*. Ofcourse joining more guilds of this type of guild 
> will have you banned out of other guilds, as you said (depends on the 
> rules of that guild), but I would like them not to be banneble! out of 
> the standaard guild. 

I see the problem.  In my original mesage replace every occurance of 
guild with the word 'class' and every occurance of the word clan with the 
word 'guild'.  Then I think we are talking about the same thing here.  I 
was speaking of guilds as the physical embodyment of classes (where a 
class would go to practice).  I was referring to clans as more of a 
social institution where people who want to do things as a group or 
extended family would go (sans the class restrictions and such).

> But to be back on the immortal issue, some type of guilds which have 
> restrictions could add a lot of playfun for those level 30 who don't 
> want to immort or 'to be immorts' who didn't get a blessing from the gods 
> to become immortal.  
> > It is sometimes nice to have a group of players form a clan (I'll stick 
> > to calling it a clan to distinguish it from my idea of guilds.)  Many of 
> > you have probably already seen players put things like [ROSE] or [BLADE] 
> > or something in their title.  What I have decided to do is handle clans 
> > this way:
> > 
> > 1.  Putting the clan into your title makes it an unofficial clan, and 
> > thus pretty much meaningless.
> Couldn't agree more, those clan names in title are too obvious. Everyone
> can see to what clan you belong so secret clans cannot exist this way.

Thus I would suggest a clan (in your terms - guild) symbol.  A prominent 
symbol may be a crested suit of armor for a clan of knights.  A more 
secret symbol could be a curved dagger with an inscription on its side 
for an evil clan specializing in assassinations.  In terms of the code, 
perhaps each official guild could have a player affect flag, so that when 
you become a member there is a way to handle it.

> > 2.  To make a clan official, it must be sponsored by a God.
> mmmm... this means that you must have a lot of gods, playing different 
> aligns, when you want a lot of clans. 

Well you could always create a pantheon of gods and play them all 
yourself.  I'd imagine a MUD which averages over 50 players on at all 
times has a few gods around.  If you've managed this with less than ten 
gods, I tip my hat to you.  (Maybe you need to get out more often ;)

>                                       I think it is not needed for a god 
> to bless a clan, it would add some fame if you have such a good class 
> that it _will_ get sponsored by a god ;) 

Well if you are going to have clan symbols (as a lot of people have 
requested in my game), then you need to be careful on how they are 
distributed.  Having a God sponsor a clan is one way to do this.  You at 
least need a God to approve it if the clan is to have a castle, hideout 
or any type of structure.  How involved you want to make your God 
characters int he role-playing aspect of the game would probably 
determine how you handle this.  I know a lot of people don't like to 
role-play with their Gods.  They are too busy coding or building in 
another window, or use their God character to police the mortals around.  
Many Gods have their own mortal character that they use when they want to 

When I came up with the idea of running clans (as described in my first 
message), I got great feedback from both players and Gods.  The players 
like to have the game support features like clans (complete with symbols 
and structures), and the Gods liked the role-playing side involved with 
sponsoring a clan.

> ---
> Wave,
> 	Lovi
>    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Real name: Remko Riethoven        o/x          e-mail :
>    MUDLife: Lovidamo, Piney, Flippy   \  c\_/~~ Lot's of coffee required ;-)
>             Jade, GoldDust            /\              Magic: She was my car!
>    HypnoDrome Software Development (c) [HDSD]
>    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think my use of words has caused some confusion based on this 
response.  To clarify:

When I say guild, I am referring to the orginization where a class 
furthers its abilities.  It is basically a place to further one's 
skills.  Being a member of a guild simply means that you have decided to 
devote part of your life to the studies of that guild.  Being a member of 
more thn one guild means that several ways of life or disciplines have 
interested you (you've decided to multiclass).

When I say clan, I am referring to a social organization of players based 
on their role-playing preferences.  A clan could allow anyone to join, or 
could even be more exclusive than a guild (like a clan of assassins, 
where only evil thieves who are members of no other guild could possibly 

Whereas the guild focuses more on practicing and developing of skills, 
the clan focuses more on role-playing and social interaction.

Hope that clears things up.

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